A Little Grumpy About the Pithy Meme

[bedlamhouse]

The current pithy meme going around Facebook seems to be various forms of:

"We live in a society that teaches women to be careful not to be raped instead of teaching men NOT TO RAPE" (this version).

OK, I understand the sentiment, that focusing on what women "need" to do is effectively pre-blaming the victim, when the problem is the men who commit the rape. It also is referring the all-too-common "don't dress like that" sexist bullshit.

But I have many, many problems with it being stated like this, being a member of the penis-afflicted gender.

First is the idea that men are not taught not to rape. I was taught that violence - particularly against women - was wrong (do not commit rape as a violent act). I was taught that "no means no" (do not commit rape as a non-consensual sexual act). I taught this to the boys I raised. I see it being taught to boys being raised around me, and I see both the act of date rape and violent rape vilified in the fictional and factual media.

I find it very upsetting that there seems to be an idea that something which is a crime being committed by men who are acting in an anti-social fashion is happening simply because no one is telling anyone that it is anti-social.

Second is that not blaming the victim does NOT mean one has no responsibility for one's own safety. If I get t-boned at an intersection and thrown out of the car, sure, it's the fault of the person who hit me, but I could have worn a seat belt to protect myself against the possibility. If I get mugged walking through downtown Detroit at 2 am, it's the mugger who committed the crime and (perhaps) society that failed him and forced him into such action, but I should have been taking precautions (like not walking through downtown Detroit at 2 am).

I cannot control the acts of others, no matter how right or wrong those acts might be. I can only control my own actions and how those actions affect my own interactions with others. Some of the actions I can control are ones that keep me safe and are common sense.

Recommending that people take steps to protect themselves is NOT THE SAME as blaming them should something happen when they didn't take precautions. How is saying "don't get blind drunk when you are out with people who might take advantage of you" any different from saying "don't wear black clothing or go with your back to traffic if you are going to be walking on unlit streets after dark"? How is "don't accept a drink from a stranger" any different from "keep your wallet in your front pocket on the subway" or "don't walk into dark alleys alone"?

In a perfect world we would all be able to do things that are nowadays unsafe because of the deviant or irresponsible acts of others. But this is not a perfect world, and I would be criminally irresponsible if I did not teach my daughters how to avoid dangerous situations just as avidly as I teach my sons not to be rapists.

Comments

[madfilkentist]

There are people who only want to find someone else to blame. They're just presenting a new version of the idea that women are helpless things who can't do anything to defend themselves.

[huskiebear.livejournal.com]

Thank you for putting into words what has been niggling at the back of my mind whenever I see this.

[weirdsister.livejournal.com]

Thank you. That was very well said.

[gwynnyd.livejournal.com]

I think the difference is between "don't leave your money out" and "don't be female". One is something you can do something about and the other is... well... I suppose it is technically possible to stop being female, but that comes with its own set of problems.

A large majority of rapes are *not* of the variety that the standard "taking precautions" could avoid, unless those precautions are to lock yourself in a hermetically sealed room and have no contact with anyone. The implication too often does become victim blaming. If someone is raped it is *because* they did not "take *enough* precautions" - regardless of whatever precautions they did take. You may not think you assign blame that way, but your comments say otherwise.

If I'm attacked while walking to my car, is it MY fault for not taking precautions or the attacker's fault for attacking me? What is so provocative about walking while female that the standard comment is always, "That's horrible but if only you had been taking more precautions you would not have been attacked"? Did I need to be wearing a burka? Carrying a visible uzi? Never, ever walking to my car? Why is the burden on ME to *always* have done something differently or have to justify what I did do to avoid being attacked before the standard comment becomes, "That's horrible. Men should not attack women."

*That's* the attitude change we need.

And yes, people ought to use common sense, but that still does not mean that the standard response should be "since you were attacked, it's obvious whatever you did, you didn't take *enough* precautions and therefore you are at least partly responsible for whatever happened to you." No, just no.

[bedlamhouse]

My problem with the meme is that it implies the only reason men rape women is because they weren't taught better, not because rape as in your example is a violent crime that is only different from other violent crimes because it is perceived as solely being perpetrated by men against women (which we won't get into because yes, the vast vast majority of rape is man raping woman and so it is fine to make the assumption for the sake of this argument).

The solution should address people learning that being raped is not the woman's fault, not that teaching women to take precautions is sexist and wrong. Even your argument is about the blame, not the prevention.

We aren't going to completely prevent rape any more than we could completely prevent robbery, assault, or any other violent crime. To think we can do so simply be educating men - as if rape is overwhelmingly committed through ignorance - is naive and dangerous.

Education IS a tool to prevent date rape, and is definitely being used to combat it - contrary to the implication of the meme.

[judifilksign.livejournal.com]

I ended up moderating a discussion amongst several of my son's teen friends who are girls about "what to do" in several harassment and what-if scenarios.

The starting question was a teen working in a hardware store, and a customer buddy of the boss was making overt sexual comments, and trying to get her into the back of the store to "Show him were something was." She had so far been able to fob him off, but was uncomfortable.

We went through several options for her, including putting in her notice, and went on to other questions the group had: scenarios in school, boyfriend pressure, walking safety, and so on. They were all astonished to find out that their moms had issues with pushy, weird guys, too, even now as moms!

So, I do agree with you about teaching precautions, and "what would you do in this situation?" thinking. I also have taught Health class, the Sex Ed unit in the past to junior high and high school students, and I can say with authority that the misinformation and ignorance out there (on both sides) is HUGE.

"My dad says girls always say 'No' before they say yes, and my brothers say that too."

"If a girl dresses sexy, she's telling me 'Yes' but says 'No' because she doesn't want to sound dirty."

Simple conversations across the room with girls, or from me quickly addresses those misconceptions. And the boys weren't being defiant or snarky; they were really stating what they'd heard or absorbed from family and peers.

And again, education and open dialog to address these gaps in knowledge and experience are key.

[stevieannie.livejournal.com]

I like this. We recently took our son to task as someone (a girl) he tangentially knew was harrassed by a weird guy on the public bus they all use.

He stuck up for the girl on the bus, but let her get off on her own. My opinion is that as tall, fit young man - someone known and safe - he should have walked her home and called us from her house, where we would have picked him up.

This simply didn't occur to him. Thankfully his friend was fine, if a little shaken. I don't think I need to teach him "not to rape", but I can certainly teach him how to be a good guy, and help friends who are vulnerable (whatever their gender).

[catsittingstill.livejournal.com]

If I may make a suggestion, perhaps it would be more appropriate for him to offer to walk her home, if she liked, but let her set the boundaries of that interaction.

Because while he knows, and you know, that he is safe, perhaps she doesn't, and because part of the exercise is to respect her rights to set boundaries.

[stevieannie.livejournal.com]

True. But I also worry about the teenager default "I'm OK" and "nothing will happen to *me*" belief which is so prevalent.

But then we enter the world of whether it's right to allow someone else to put themselves into danger, and there lie *very* dangerous waters about personal freedom etc.

I'm just pleased that she *was* OK, and wanted my son to understand that a responsibility to others is an important part of being a good person.

[gwynnyd.livejournal.com]

The meme you object to says, "We live in a society that teaches women to be careful not to get raped, instead of teaching men not to rape."

I don't think that meme says, "teaching women to take precautions is sexist and wrong."

It's saying that, generally in our society, if someone is raped, the fact that some other person did the raping is secondary to the fact that that particular person was raped. It's the person who was raped responsibility to have known to have done some unspecified something differently, because if THEY had somehow done *enough* to prevent it, the rape would not have happened. Instead, the blame should be put squarely and only on the person who did the raping. (The short version is pithier if possibly less clear)

People - some abstract people who do commit rapes - believe other people are sluts who are asking for it, or they do it for power, or because they feel entitled to sex, or whatever. *Those* people, possibly also of the male gender, not necessarily those who do know better and not the entire group of human males glossed under the category "men", because some women are abusers too, need be educated that that is not how they ought to behave because obviously they have not gotten the message that rape is NEVER acceptable.

Where do you draw the line between "people taking reasonable precautions while living their life" and "it wouldn't happen if only they listen when they are told to take *enough* reasonable precautions" while not defining *enough* because if it happens, they obviously didn't do *enough* and what happened IS their fault at least in part?

"Some of the actions I can control are ones that keep me safe and are common sense."

I've written, erased and started over several times here. It seems to me that no matter how I frame it, it comes down to "I know men know they should not rape, so if they do, maybe, well, I don't like to think it, but, you know, maybe the women should have, well perhaps that's too strong, perhaps a woman could have done something differently, or maybe it's only that she should have known that she could have done something differently and that would have prevented it."

What if, no matter what you did, you were not safe? What if you were blamed because something happened to you anyway?

If you are t-boned while you are wearing your seat belt and driving the speed limit and following all the traffic rules and were injured anyway, would you expect people to pile on the blame and say, "He should have known better than to be driving down that road in that car. He should have been doing more to protect himself. Why didn't he install a 5-point harness instead of relying on the standard seat belts and air bags? And buy a bigger, safer car while he was at it. Cars and driving are dangerous situations and he should have known that. It's his own fault that he is injured now." No. You'd expect everyone to say, "That stupid other driver. Why didn't they know the rules of the road?"

That's the takeaway I get from the meme. That it's OK to make it a priority to teach *the rapists* the rule that rape is not acceptable and not just focus all the efforts on the people being raped following some set of behaviors to avoid being raped.

The general societal consensus *is* moving towards "rape culture" being less acceptable but there's only progress *because* of the efforts to educate people that rape is NEVER acceptable.

[deborah_c]

*nods*

I have not, mercifully, been raped. (The pessimist in me says, with a degree of justified fear, "yet"). I have, however, been sexually assaulted, like most of the women I know.

When it happened, I was told "you shouldn't have been in a dangerous place after dark, and you shouldn't have been wearing provocative clothing". This was without the (multiple, separate) people involved finding out the facts: I was in a cathedral, in broad daylight, wearing jeans, a top that exposed nothing, and a coat.

I'm not really able to string together very much coherent thought on the original post here, but a very large chunk of the world out there viewed what happened as entirely my fault. That includes friends and members of my family. Worse, getting told that it was my fault made me, for a while, believe that it must somehow have been.

And that is why the emphasis on educating girls to try to avoid rape is so pernicious, I think; it means we blame the victims, but on the other hand it also gives women the message "you can stop this happening, this only happens to bad girls".

Meanwhile, a significant proportion of the male population (according to studies which I can't lay hands on at this moment) -- I think the number was about 10 or 15% or so -- will freely admit to having raped a woman, as long as you don't use the word, because what they do is perfectly reasonable, it's not as if they're leaping out of bushes. And there, education is important, to make clear that yes, that behaviour was rape.

Sorry. I shall shut up now, if only because I want to curl up in a corner and cry.

[markbernstein.livejournal.com]

The problem I have with your reasoning is that "Men are not taught not to rape" and "Men are taught not to rape" are both, taken literally, false statements. Some men are taught not to rape. Some are not. I don't know what the correct percentages are, and rather doubt anyone does. More broadly, and I believe this is highly relevant, some men are taught to not objectify women, to accept that no means no, to understand that cleavage on display is not an invitation to sex, etc. But many are not. And that needs to change.

Any pithy meme is, by definition (see: "pithy"), going to be an oversimplification. In this case, my interpretation of the use of "instead" in the original quote is different from yours. I don't see it as "We should stop teaching women to take precautions." I see it as "Currently, we teach women to take precautions, some of which are unreasonable, as a substitute for teaching all men that rape is always wrong."

[catsittingstill.livejournal.com]

How is saying "don't get blind drunk when you are out with people who might take advantage of you" any different from saying "don't wear black clothing or go with your back to traffic if you are going to be walking on unlit streets after dark"?

Because it's like saying being female = walking on the street at night. Have you noticed that being male = nothing much in the way of hazards?

There's something fundamentally wrong with that.

It's like saying women don't have the same right to get drunk that a man does. Or the same right to walk alone that a man does. Or the same right to go out at night that a man does. And it often wanders off into weird ideas like women don't have the same right to wear short / lightweight clothes that a man does, or women don't have the same right to walk around not dressed for the street in their own damned house that a man does.

Do X to be safe is not the same thing as "and if you don't you deserve what you get"...quite... But yeah, it's close enough that you will annoy some people.

Policemen who are supposed to be catching criminals are instead wasting their time (and our time) policing women's clothing. (In the "don't wear shorts--don't you know there's a rapist around?" kind of policing, not indecent exposure type policing.) That sure as hell looks to me like "do X to be safe" gone wrong--and not even very far wrong.

It's just crazy that it's always and only women who are expected to make the sacrifices.

[madfilkentist]

Have you noticed that being male = nothing much in the way of hazards?

Not when I look at the police reports near where I work.

But I've noticed other things that show the police are out of touch. Advice like "don't use your cell phone in public."

[catsittingstill.livejournal.com]

But that's part of my point.

Men are more likely to be killed in a bar fight but it doesn't occur to us to tell men to stay home--don't go out, or at least not to a bar, or if you must go to a bar for God's sake be subservient!

Men are more likely to be killed in a car accident, but it doesn't occur to us to tell men not to drive.

We tell women to stay home at night, or get an escort, or wear less revealing clothes, or stay out of that part of town... but we rarely give similar freedom-restricting advice to men, even to save their lives.

[bedlamhouse]

Really? When I was younger I was DEFINITELY told not to go into certain bars, and if I DID then to back down or get out rather than messing with certain people in those bars. The way young men are treated by insurance companies is often tantamount to telling them not to drive. I could even state that there are certain colors and clothing components a man absolutely does not wear in certain parts of certain cities, where a woman wearing those colors or leathers might be able to get by.

The difference here, of course, is that if I DID go into one of those bars and I DID get into the face of one of those patrons, it certainly as HELL would be partly my fault for being such a macho jackass.

[madfilkentist]

The question is, which "we" are we talking about? I don't know whether you do, but I don't.

There are areas where I've asked for someone to walk with me if I'm out late at night. There are areas in Boston that I'd advise anyone to avoid, or at least I would if my knowledge of the bad areas were more precise. On a trip to a filksing in Boston recently, I didn't bring my keyboard because of concerns about crime in that area.

There are, doubtless, people who advise only women on these things and think men should be totally reckless about them. I am reasonably sure they aren't you or me, and the odds are low that they're anyone else in this discussion.

[bedlamhouse]

Women are not the only ones assaulted because they are perceived as being weak or out of place. They are overwhelmingly the ones raped in such a situation, but plenty of men are robbed/beaten/killed and the advice to them is "don't go there at night" or "don't get drunk without a safe place to be".

Again, though, the hot button for women seems to be the implication that all advice about being responsible for your own personal safety equals "or you deserve what you get". Yes, there are idiots out there who believe that, just like there are idiots out there who believe getting killed for breaking down in a bad neighborhood means you deserved what you got for driving there in the first place. To lump everything into an insulting category even when it isn't meant to be seems to be counterproductive.

But this meme isn't addressing that. What it wants to say is:

"We live in a society that blames women for what they wear instead of blaming the men who rape them"

In other words, that calls out the sexist crap and doesn't imply that men raping women is all somehow about education. I think it is still an oversimplification - it implies no one bothers to go after rapists at all - but it is closer to the place nearly everyone arguing the point seems to want to go in the argument.

That part about "teaching" is really my hot button. Violent rapists are seldom men who just never learned it wasn't OK to attack a woman in a parking lot, beat her up, and violate her. They are violent men who are violent in other ways to men as well as women. Sending them to class isn't going to fix this.

As judifilksign has discussed and I agree with, date rape IS something which education can address. However, even educating men about what "no" means is not 100% guaranteed protection from the predators out there who aren't going to be educated out of their gynopathic (is that a word?) tendencies. Even assuming good intentions for the male involved, there are grey areas (does "yes" mean "no" if the women is sober enough to talk but too drunk to make wise decisions? Is it the man's job to be aware enough to understand this - i.e. not allowed to get drunk, though often that is a problem that "fixes itself", so to speak - or is it the responsibility of a woman not to put herself in the position to make a bad decision? Is it a matter of symbolism and intent, as Lord Darcy would say?)

Oversimplification that muddies the point just to better poke someone in the eye isn't useful.

[catsittingstill.livejournal.com]

Some people do teach their boys (and girls), no means no, means you quit tickling your sister when she tells you to stop and you don't slap a girl's behind and then laugh when she gets mad and you don't accost someone who's minding her own business because your desire to tell her she looks sexually desirable is more important than whatever she might be doing right now.

Which is totally great, because they're all points along the continuum of "my desire for X is more important than a woman's / this woman's / some kinds of women's / desire to be left alone."

But there's also a lot of places education has plainly fallen well short of the goal. You see a bunch of "women don't really know what they want; keep pushing and they'll discover they really want to have sex with you." (Heck, see Judifilksign's tale above of boys sincerely believing that "girls always say no before they say yes" and "her clothes are saying yes but she tells me no so she won't sound dirty"--these kids have been TAUGHT this crap by grownups they trusted and they're in HIGH SCHOOL and they don't know any better YET. Education is clearly falling short in these cases--and Judi caught and hopefully fixed these examples, but what about the thousands of boys who don't have Judi for a teacher?)

And once you've got that "women want you without knowing it" "or women want you but they won't say so" set in some one's mind, "keep pushing" begins as harassment and ends as rape. Damn straight education is needed.

It's great that you taught your kids well. Now we need to help all the other boys that are still thinking a girl says no "so she won't look dirty" as opposed to "because she means it."

Sure, also catch rapists and put them behind bars. Which will be easier when every man who's with them, or every man they brag to about it afterwards, promptly turns them in to the authorities because everybody knows having sex with a anyone who is passed out cold is obviously rape, because they couldn't give consent. Education, again.

Consent is not just not fighting back when she could have--consent is enthusiastic collaboration (see catalana's remark below). If you don't have that, time to pull back. If you see someone going forward without that, time to check that everything is okay. Education, again.

And yes, there is a proportion of rapists who go for violent stranger rape. I have the impression they're noticeably outweighed by the "get her too drunk to know what's going on" contingent, and the men who know about them and don't turn them in because hey--a girl should look after her own safety, which means not drinking with untrustworthy people, right?

Because, seriously--you're going to have to get *really* creative to give women advice on safety we haven't heard a thousand times before. It's like writing a love song; it's going to be a real challenge to come up with some angle that hasn't been done to death.

And the other thing that occurs to me is this:

Has it occurred to you that restricting men's actions could also prevent rape? What if men weren't allowed to go to places there might be drunk women? What if they weren't allowed out at night without an escort? What if they were expected to wear clothing that made it hard for them to move freely? Wouldn't that tend to reduce rape?

But wait, you say--and quite reasonably so--most men are completely innocent of rape; it is unfair to advocate restricting our actions when we haven't done anything wrong.

Quite right. Of course, most women are completely innocent of rape also. So why advocate restricting OUR actions?

[bedlamhouse]

Has it occurred to you that restricting men's actions could also prevent rape? What if men weren't allowed to go to places there might be drunk women? What if they weren't allowed out at night without an escort? What if they were expected to wear clothing that made it hard for them to move freely? Wouldn't that tend to reduce rape?

But wait, you say--and quite reasonably so--most men are completely innocent of rape; it is unfair to advocate restricting our actions when we haven't done anything wrong.

Quite right. Of course, most women are completely innocent of rape also. So why advocate restricting OUR actions?

First off, this is about the victim getting advice to restrict choices so as not to be victimized, not about restricting the choices of potential victimizers. I think the analogy fails because it doesn't reverse the roles unless you DO believe that the woman being raped IS as much at fault as the rapist - which neither of us believes.

The proper analogy would be whether there are choices a MAN cannot make for personal safety reasons. Addressing that point, there ARE places I do not go at night (or in the daytime) without an escort. There ARE circumstances I would never, ever consider being drunk in. There ARE decisions I make that restrict my choices in respect for my safety rather than saying everyone with the potential to harm me should be locked up/held back/restricted/whatever.

But, again, I don't think the issue isn't advice regarding the restricting of choices, it is that there is BLAME when the "proper" choice isn't followed. THAT I wholeheartedly agree has no place, but I think the meme does not address it.

[catsittingstill.livejournal.com]

And the places you wouldn't go without an escort, most women wouldn't go without an escort either. The circumstances you wouldn't be drunk in, most women wouldn't be drunk in either. We don't really need to be told again.

I guess my point is, if it's advice you'd give a young person of either gender, then it's appropriate to give a young person, of either gender. Advice about locking your bike, even though stealing bikes is always wrong and is solely the fault of the thief. Advice about avoiding assault, even though assault is always wrong and is solely the fault of the assaulter.

If it's advice you're *just* giving to women, about restrictions *only we* should suffer, maybe it's time to think about other things we can do. Like teaching everyone that no means no. Like teaching everyone that passed-out-drunk can't give consent. Like teaching everyone that rape jokes aren't funny, and people who tell them might be a danger to you or your friends, and should be treated as such. Like teaching everyone that sex is like having someone over to your house--just because Tom is invited doesn't mean Bob is; just because Anne is invited Wednesday doesn't mean she has a right to barge in on Thursday, just because Kit can come in now doesn't mean he can stay as long as he wants.

Education isn't everything. Some people are jerks who want to hurt people and will do what they can to make that happen, and they will never ever be educated out of that. But the jerks would have a lot less cover if everyone around them was very clear on issues of consent. So sure, teach everyone how to protect themselves from jerks. But while you're at it, cut back the cover the jerks are working under. (Just like getting rid of rats.) That's where the whole "teach men /expect men / not to rape" thing comes in.

[bedlamhouse]

Within certain limits, I agree. There are places and things I might not advise my son who moves furniture for a living and is 6'3" tall against that I would certainly advise my 5'4" daughter against. However, I might not advise my 5'11" daughter the same way as either one, so it isn't so much about gender as it is about ability to cope with the possible situation.

I have advised my daughters not to wear certain clothes to school based on what I think it said about herself rather than what I thought would happen to her, in the same way I have advised my sons not to wear certain things to school (ok, well, not so much "advised" as "had arguments over"). I will admit to having had the typical "daddy" issue about what age a daughter should be allowed to express sexuality through clothing, but I at least hope that came across as protective and concerned rather than oppressive and restrictive. In any event, I am thankfully past that time and did the best I could.

At the end of the day, I hope that I would never, ever, blame someone for being attacked, whether it was rape or any other kind of assault.

Oh - and I love the "inviting someone over to your house" description. I will file that away for use should it be needed in futurte.

[catsittingstill.livejournal.com]

I believe you.

I see "do X to be safe" as being a point on the continuum from "do X to be safe" to "and if you don't you deserve what you get" but I certainly believe you are as far over on the non-blaming side of the continuum as it is possible to get. And for what it's worth I frequently think of "do X to be safe" myself...

I just think that education about other issues is also helpful, for the reasons I gave above.

[catsittingstill.livejournal.com]

Oh, err.... I should have said the "inviting someone over" simile did not originate with me; I picked it up from a website called "Feministe" if I remember correctly. Credit where credit is due, to the best of my ability.

[gwynnyd.livejournal.com]

"That part about "teaching" is really my hot button. Violent rapists are seldom men who just never learned it wasn't OK to attack a woman in a parking lot, beat her up, and violate her. They are violent men who are violent in other ways to men as well as women. Sending them to class isn't going to fix this."

But violent stranger rape makes up the SMALLEST percentage of rapes. Most rapes are committed by a person the victim knows. Over 20% of the victims are 11 years old or younger AND they know the person who raped them. Half of the rapes do not do physical damage that can be seen with anything other than a microscope.

I don't think anyone here is saying that people in general shouldn't take reasonable precautions. To me, as a woman, it feels as if I need to take an *unreasonable* amount of precautions and that no matter what I do, it will never be *enough.* As I mentioned earlier in this thread, where is the line drawn? Do I have to wear a burka, carry an uzi, and always go in group? Why should I have to wear a burka, carry an uzi and go in group just to get to my car even if it is after dark?

A lot of men will still get a nudge-nudge-wink-wink from their buds instead of a "that is so not right" when they brag about not taking no for an answer. How will that ever be different without education?

[filklore-on-lj.livejournal.com]

To illustrate why I find that meme offensive requires me to make a similarly offensive statement. Rest assured it is not something I believe.

"We live in a society that teaches people to be careful not to have things stolen instead of teaching Liverpudlians NOT TO STEAL".

[gwynnyd.livejournal.com]

I don't think it's offensive. I think you don't have to say it that way because the general consensus of society is that the second part of that statement is already the case.

[filklore-on-lj.livejournal.com]

But you are not a Liverpudlian, which is perhaps why you don't find it offensive. I can assure you that many would. Let me put it this way - it is not something I would even whisper in a Liverpool pub.

Equally, I am offended by the suggestion that men need to be taught not to rape. It implies that, lacking such teaching, I could be a rapist, just as my statement implies that, without teaching, all Liverpudlians could be thieves.

[gwynnyd.livejournal.com]

Of course YOU don't need to be taught not to rape. Rapists need to be taught not to rape.

If Liverpudlians never/rarely steal, which is what I assumed you meant by using it as an analogy, then as I said, it does not work because it is already the case. If "society" already agreed that rape was solely the fault of the rapist, the meme under discussion would not work either.

[filklore-on-lj.livejournal.com]

You said "Rapists need to be taught not to rape."

But that isn't what Bill quoted, and that isn't what I have heard so many times in the past:

"We live in a society that teaches women to be careful not to be raped instead of teaching men NOT TO RAPE"

Now if that was reworded to say

"We live in a society that teaches women to be careful not to be raped instead of teaching people that rape is wrong"

I would probably object to it less. But as stated, it is saying specifically that society needs to teach MEN not to rape.

Aside from anything else, it ignores the fact that women are not the only victims of rape.

"If Liverpudlians never/rarely steal"

Liverpool has an unfortunate (and not totally fair) reputation for crime - why it occurred to me, talking to folk I mainly know from fandom, is that I know of at least one SF convention bid for Liverpool that suffered because of this reputation, that "they are all thieves".

So my statement was doing exactly what the rapist statement was doing - observing that some Liverpudlians are thieves (which is patently true, as crime exists there), and then generalising that all Liverpudlians could be thieves if we didn't teach them not to be.

[gwynnyd.livejournal.com]

Oh, I'm so sorry, filklore. I had a blonde moment and totally forgot that this discussion was not all about you. How could I be so silly? Golly gee whiz! I forgot about the MENZ!

[catalana.livejournal.com]

Umm, but surely without learning societal norms we *could* commit crimes? I don't see what's objectionable about saying that "It implies that, lacking such teaching, I could be a rapist."

Absent moral learning, I could be a thief or a murderer. Why don't I do those things? Because I have learned (some by direct teaching, some by thinking, some by observing and following examples) that those things are wrong.

So I guess I'm confused about what the problem is here - are you claiming that you were innately born knowing what was right and wrong? Or is it more that it seems to imply a specific *kind* of teaching that you have to go through?

(I may be going too ethics professor-y here; I just tend to agree with Aristotle that virtue is learned, not innate, so I don't see what the problem is with saying that, if I didn't know better, I might do something unethical.)

[catalana.livejournal.com]

One thing I'd note is that if you present a scenario with the word "rape" in it, most guys will say, "Oh, yeah, that's wrong." But if you present a scenario without it, the data is much less clear. So I think that one thing that's a bit misleading about all of this is that we act as if everyone involved has a perfect understanding of what rape is. And, I'm sorry, but I teach on a college campus...and I have to say that a lot of guys I encounter don't seem to grasp the nuances of consent. (Personally, I'm not sure why we're aiming for such a low bar - I don't really think you should have sex just because someone says yes; I'd think you should aim a little higher than "oh okay" and maybe more towards "Oh god yes please!" But I digress.)

I also think that there is a lot of emphasis on teaching women all the things they shouldn't do in order to avoid rape; this is simply trying to swing the pendulum back the other way to go "You know, maybe we should be trying to get guys to take some of the responsibility."

So teaching men not to rape doesn't just mean lecture them so they'll give the right answer when I say "would you rape someone?" It means teaching them to keep an eye out for women who look like they might need help. Keep an eye out for guys who look like they might be about to do something wrong. Be willing to help walk people home, understand the need for good lighting in parking lights, hell, even provide drinks at parties in single-serving cans/bottles so it's easy to tell they haven't been tampered with. Don't keep quiet if one of your friends makes rape jokes - and don't make them yourself. There are SO MANY ways that men can help and that you can teach your sons to fight rape.

I totally agree that there are pragmatic considerations that impact what we can do and that we should teach those to our daughters. But we shouldn't focus all (or maybe even most) of our attention on them - we need also to work on fixing the problem. And that's what the idea of teaching men not to rape, as over-simplified as it's put, is.

[filklore-on-lj.livejournal.com]

I just realised that this topic really punched one of my buttons.

I first came across this attitude when I first went to university as a shy and very young 18-year-old. It was a glib comment, often spoken at the time, and affected me at a very delicate point in my emotional development.

In my 3rd year at college, I exorcised myself by having the following poem published in the student union rag.

All Men Are...
by Chris Malme

"All men are rapists!"
She proclaimed, rolling her cigarette,
As we sat in the Student's Union,
"They are our oppressors, our captors, our killers."

Many times in the future,
I thought about these words my friend had said.
They humbled me, and made me thoughtful,
Careful not to be a threat,
Never to presume,
Always to be
Considerate.

Years later, we met,
Me still alone, her on her third marriage.
I recalled her words, and told her how that day
Had changed my life.
"Did really I say that?" she asked
"Well, you know I never meant _you_"

Well, bugger me.

[stevieannie.livejournal.com]

I'll come right out and say the unsayable. I think we should teach *everyone* that personal violence is unacceptable, including sexual violence and crimes against consent.

If a man sees a woman in trouble, he should be able to help her without fear of recrimination. If a woman sees a woman in trouble, the same. If a woman sees a man in trouble, the same. We should not be teaching any one gender that the problem is theirs any more than any other. We need to respect that many men are honourable people and that some women do not rate their own safety highly enough.

We don't teach our sons 'not to rape' - we teach ALL of our children that it is wrongwrongwrong and not to allow it to happen.

[singedcat.livejournal.com]

Wow, I haven't seen this meme at all, possibly because I would be crawling up the butt of anyone who posted it. Nah, that's not it, no one lives in fear of my posts. But just know this feminist is all about this, and I can point to old posts to the effect of your own.